The Lord of the Rings showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay break down the controversies, revelations, and major deaths.

The Rings of Power wrapped up season two not only with storm clouds raging on nearly every horizon of Middle-earth, but with the deaths of several major characters—some of them towering figures from J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings lore. J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay, the showrunners of Amazon’s expensive, expansive series, spoke with Vanity Fair about some of the most provocative twists.

In the finale that just aired on Prime Video, the wizard known as The Stranger is officially confirmed to be Gandalf. The Dark Wizard remains unnamed, but may not be who fans are guessing. The rings have been forged, but their creator has been killed. And a familiar fire demon has been unleashed, while the dwarf king pays with his life for digging too deep and greedily.

Here’s how it all came to pass—along with what the showrunners consider to be their biggest controversies. Spoilers ahead…

The Bad End of Celebrimbor

Vanity Fair: The final episode features the completion of the rings that Sauron will use to control Middle-earth, but also the death of their maker, the elven-smith Celebrimbor. Can you unpack the significance of his final words to Sauron?

J.D. Payne: The two Charlies absolutely crushed it throughout the season but especially in that final scene. Charles Edwards [who plays Celebrimbor] is vulnerable and you feel pathos for him but there’s also something triumphant. He’s a victim and he’s being tortured and killed, but then also he’s able to rise up in this final moment. Celebrimbor says, “No, you are their prisoner, Sauron—Lord of the Rings.” And you just watch for a moment as Charlie Vickers [as Sauron] responds to that and a tear comes down his face. And then the Orcs come in and he goes through this transformation and is now ready to start manipulating anew, all in that one shot. Both of them are firing on all cylinders.

Using that phrase, “the Lord of the Rings,” seems like a big moment. It’s presented as more of a curse than an honor.

Payne: It’s something that Annatar [the elven disguise Sauron adopts] initially seduces Celebrimbor with. He says that, “You, Celebrimbor will be the Lord of the Rings. You’re going to forever eclipse Fëanor [the even more ancient elven creator of mystical objects], and it’s going to be this celebrated achievement of the age.” And at the end Celebrimbor is able to say, “No, that’s not me, that’s you, Sauron—Lord of the Rings. By the way, you don’t want to be Lord of the Rings because they’ll only master you.”

Patrick McKay: The two poles of that story are, “You’re the Lord of the Rings!” “No, you’re the Lord of the Rings!” It has a changed meaning, right? The first time it’s an honorary title being bestowed, the second time, it’s sort of a death sentence in a way. This is what this season’s about. The fate of the world is being decided by two people in a room.

How does he arrive at this idea that the power of the rings actually makes you a prisoner?

McKay: I think Sauron is a slave of his own ambition. Celebrimbor knows that Sauron’s will is tied to the rings and that happens to all of us in certain ways, right? If we’re workaholics, we think that our work gives us the ability to go out and control the world but no, we’re really slaves of our work. We’re slaves of the thing that drives us. Sauron is so driven that Celebrimbor knows he’ll never be able to escape from it. He says, “I foresee the end. One ring alone will lead to your utter ruin,” which is what proves to be the case. Sauron eventually pours so much of himself into these creations that his very existence becomes tied to them. When Frodo and Gollum, entangled together, end up getting the ring into the lava, it does destroy Sauron. Celebrimbor can sort of see that prophetically.

Is that because, while creating them, Celebrimbor also lost his own way?

McKay: Well, worse than that, the darkness overcame him and nearly destroyed him. Celebrimbor, more than anyone, understands the evil power of those rings. That is the modus operandi by which Sauron is doing everything. “Evil undoes itself,” is what I think he’s saying to him.

Tolkien himself described a painful death for Celebrimbor. His city of Eregion is demolished, he knows he has empowered an evildoer, he’s shot with arrows, and his body becomes a grim trophy. You kept most of this, but made it more of a private death than a public spectacle.

McKay: We wanted to honor the intention of that and the thematic core of that. The idea that he’s shot full of arrows, and hung on a pole, and paraded around by an army … it felt exploitative to a relationship that was so deeply personal between the two of them. We’re not quite going as far or as out there as the lore. It’s rumored in the lore that happened, right? Tolkien always presents “accounts” of what happened. That’s why sometimes the stories differ.

It’s still pretty gruesome but it feels more … dignified?

McKay: It just felt like it might actually undermine the seriousness of the moment for both of them. Maybe someday he will be paraded in some form. We felt that a quiet or more personal version of something similar would be appropriate in this circumstance. Even though, as you say, it’s quite grisly even for season two, which is bloodier than season one.

Coming up next on Hot Ones …

Release the Balrog!

We also see the death of King Durin III (Peter Mullan), ruler of the dwarf underworld of Khazad-dûm. He received one of Sauron’s rings, and it corrupted his mind. With his and Celebrimbor’s deaths, it seems like two powerful figures from the elder generation were wiped out because of their inability to resist that temptation.

McKay: I love that connection. Emotionally, I think you feel that. By the end of this episode, you feel that something has passed, and the characters are in a world that’s missing some of its tentpole figures and voices. You can make a similar argument for Adar also [the dark elf who is father of the orcs, played by Sam Hazeldine]. He’s a mover and a shaker who’s defined a whole race of beings for a period—and that period is over.

Payne: Tolkien is always about the passing of one thing, never to be recovered. There’s always this sense of saying goodbye to that fading world that is disappearing forever, and really will never be brought back. Something new will be put into its place.

McKay: As far as King Durin I think he’s actually not dissimilar from Celebrimbor. He found a triumph in tragedy and defeat also. He fell into enemy hands but was able to die on his own terms, heroically saving his son, and putting the genie back in the bottle—at least for now.

That “genie” you mention is the Balrog, which fans will remember as the gigantic fire demon that Gandalf confronts in Tolkien’s novels, declaring: “You shall not pass.” It was unleashed from the mountain because the dwarves dug too deeply, and Sauron’s ring motivated King Durin to do that. He frees the Balrog inadvertently, but is killed while trapping the creature again. Why free the monster only to wall him off again?

McKay: When you think about society-ending dooms, quite often it’s not all in one fell swoop. It’s a process. Two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. Whether you want to think about the fall of the Roman Empire or climate change, these are things that take place over a period of time. Great kingdoms don’t fall [fast]. A fuse is lit and burns brighter and brighter and brighter until that happens. We think that Balrog can function similarly. It represents that kind of a generational doom rather than a bad thing that happened once.

Adar—The Orc-Father

Names are so significant in this story. Sauron says repeatedly, “I have many names.” And the dark elf Adar’s true identity has always been unknown. “Adar” just means “father” to the orcs, and in the final episode he says, “This is the name I’ve earned.” He doesn’t say what his old name was. Is that still a relevant mystery now that he’s dead?

McKay: He doesn’t want to share it. “I’m not that person anymore, I don’t want to be that person.”

Payne: That’s not something we’re holding back. He’s not secretly some canon character.

McKay: In Tolkien lore, he talked about a couple different potential origins for orcs. One is that they were once elves that had been tortured, and poisoned, and turned into this new form of life that gave birth to this whole race of beings that become the orcs. That means there must have been a missing link between the two.

And that’s Adar. I had plunged into Tolkien’s lore about dark elves and found some theories about who he might be from that existing text. But it turns out he’s an original creation, not a historical figure we might have heard about before?

McKay: That was one of the earliest ideas in looking into the deep lore that we felt could tell a new story in Middle-earth. The idea that one of those early experiments, or failed experiments, or Frankenstein’s monsters, would also have a storied mythology of his own connected to a famous name… I think that feels pretty improbable. What makes Adar important is that he was the elf who fell into this trap. I think it feels hard to buy that he might have been somebody famous before that. He probably has a name that means nothing to anyone who’s alive anymore.

Payne: He’s Oppenheimer. He’s not also Roosevelt.

Markella Cavanaugh as Nori, speaking with Daniel Weyman’s The Stranger, now confirmed as Gandalf.

The Wizard Formerly Known as The Stranger

There have been clear signals that the wizard who fell to Middle-earth from the stars in season one is Gandalf. Until now, the character [played by Daniel Weyman] has only been called “The Stranger,” but in the finale of season two his name is officially confirmed. What does it mean now that we know his identity for certain?

McKay: I don’t know that we have successfully made this our rep, but we really are not trying to be clever for clever’s sake. We’re not trying to make little mystery games and puzzle boxes. We’re really trying to play with our cards open. Certainly that’s true this season with Gandalf. In the last season, he was saying very Gandalf-y things, talking in very Gandalf-y ways.

His halfling friends finally call him “Grand Elf,” which morphs into Gandalf.

McKay: That is the etymology of it—it’s the “elf with a wand.” Things that remind us of his name are ringing bells in his head little by little over the course of the season. As he comes into his own as a character—who am I, what’s important to me—then the answer’s right there waiting for him. Most viewers are probably several episodes ahead of him.

One of the characters who still doesn’t get a name is the Dark Wizard played by Ciarán Hinds. We know that he’s a wizard, we know he’s one of five. He says that to Gandalf. I think we can guess that perhaps he is Saruman, but I won’t ask you to confirm that because obviously you’ve chosen not to answer it.

McKay: No, no, I’ll say something on the record. Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman.

Payne: If not impossible.

McKay: The Dark Wizard has an important role to play in the doings of Middle-earth, and in the development of our wizard, who’s now coming into his own. Tom Bombadil has told him, “You’re destined to face him. And then destined to face Sauron.” So the Dark Wizard’s fate is not decided and his name is not out there yet, but it would almost defy the laws of gravity and physics for it to be Saruman.

Seeing the way he roughed up the halflings made me think, If he is Saruman, how would he ever regain the trust that Gandalf has to later place in him?

McKay: I think that’s a fair observation.

Tolkien also made note of only five wizards, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White…

Payne: There’s Radagast the Brown and then there’s two blue wizards—and that’s all we’ll say.

The lack of a name for the Dark Wizard—is that part of this motif that you’ve hit upon that symbolizes he’s still a wild card, not somebody whose actions can be predicted?

McKay: The Stranger is learning there’s another wizard out here, one who seems to be corrupted. This guy is saying “he knows me, but I don’t know him.” So in some ways the audience is in the place of the Stranger: “There’s a powerful person out here who claims to be connected to the same lineage as me, but I don’t know who he is. I don’t know our history, and I don’t know how he became corrupted.” Those are all things the Stranger’s going to have to learn and the audience should learn with him.

Payne: And for now he’s defined not by his title or name, but by his deeds—which are dark.

Galadriel vs. Sauron

The finale’s battle between Sauron and Galadriel seemed like a long time coming. The last time we saw them together was at the end of the previous season, when she realized who he was. You had him fight her with his spiked crown. Telling me about using that iconic relic as a weapon.

Payne: On a pure mechanics level, in terms of the set pieces, we’ve seen lots of sword fights. There’s only so many ways you could hack and slash. This was giving someone a weapon that you had never seen before. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone fight with a crown, especially a crown that has such dagger-like projections from it. It felt like interesting opportunities for unique fight choreography.

The first episode of season two also flashed back to how the crown was used to temporarily kill him off centuries before, taking him off the board until now.

Payne: Yes, that was the very crown with which Sauron himself was once killed. So taking ownership of it and using it as a weapon comes full circle. The victim who had been killed by the crown in episode one is now the aggressor able to use it for his own ends. We also know it’s a powerful artifact that had the ability to, if not kill, at least banish for hundreds of years a Maiar as powerful as Sauron. Being able to use it as a weapon that could penetrate Galadriel’s collarbone, we knew that it would do some serious damage.

McKay: Spiritual damage in addition to physical damage.

Payne: If I’m playing Dungeons & Dragons, I don’t even want to know the damage potential of an artifact like Morgoth’s Crown.

My favorite line this season is when Galadriel says, “It is not strength that overcomes darkness but light.” That seems like a really important point.

McKay: Celebrimbor says that to Galadriel, and then she repeats it again at the end.

Payne: It’s when they have their sort of tearful meeting and she says, “I’m sorry I wasn’t strong enough.” And he says, “Perhaps there might not be anyone in Middle-earth who is strong enough. But the elves need only remember, it is not strength that overcomes darkness but light. Armies may rise, hearts may fail, but still light endures.”

McKay: As you can tell, J.D. wrote that line.

I found it moving because in any time of crisis there’s this sense that might must be met with might, strength with strength. “An eye for an eye” is not too far from that. And yet that doesn’t work.

Payne:Gandhi said, “An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.” And I think that’s a central thesis of Tolkien. It goes back to what we were talking about with the rings earlier. If everyone is a master, everyone is also a slave because we’re in this constant struggle for supremacy over each other. A radical solution to that basic human problem is being a servant, as Gandalf is. He becomes a leader in the sense that his job is to inspire fellowship amongst the different peoples of Middle-earth. That fellowship, that service, and that loyalty will ultimately overcome. And so Galadriel is learning her own version of that: it’s not strength, and mastery, and force that are going to bring peace to Middle-earth but it’s light, which is just a whole paradigm shift.

She escapes Sauron, in a sense, because she’s willing to jump from a cliff to prevent him from capturing the rings. King Durin is willing to give his life to save his son and his people from this Balrog he unleashed. Is “light” another way of saying “sacrifice” or “selflessness”?

McKay: We’re never coming at things on-the-nose, like we’re commenting on the state of the world, but we are human beings living in a time of great conflict, and struggle, and division and sometimes it’s really hopeless. It’s like, oh my God, how do you fight evil? Sometimes it feels like evil’s winning. The answer from Celebrimbor is, “Well, you don’t fight it. You just make something good, do something good.” And then you hope that inspires and actually brings more good into the world and less evil. That feels like a pretty universal notion. And it feels true to these characters and true to Tolkien’s thematics.

Morfydd Clark as Galadriel with Benjamin Walker’s High King Gil-galad and Ismael Crus Cordova as Arondir.

Controversies and What’s Next

We witness the burning of Celebrimbor’s library and archive. Centuries of knowledge just discarded like that. That seems to also serve a narrative purpose because with him dead, no one else can create any more rings, right?

Payne: We’re deep in season three right now in terms of the writing, and I think you’ll see more from that. In terms of the lost knowledge, again, that’s part of Tolkien’s disappearing, fading world. There are times that echo that in human history. The burning of the Library of Alexandria, is one that, thousands of years later, haunts me. Parts of human history are gone to us. So Celebrimbor’s library feels like it would be that—the loss of this entire era of knowledge.

What do you think was the most controversial thing you did this season?

McKay: Here’s what’s so funny. We never have any idea when the thing is going to touch the third rail.

Payne: The Orc baby.

McKay: Okay, the Orc baby, right? Which by the way is never seen, and only barely heard, and maybe isn’t even there, right? It’s someone holding a bundle almost like it’s a baby and you hear a little cry. Twice Tolkien said, “These things must mate the way living things do,” which means there must be little Orcs. Is it possible that there are Orcs who were motivated by the idea that “we have this home now in Mordor, so do we really have to go to war and die?” That’s the dilemma that character is facing, the Orc with an arc—Glug. He’s like, “We’ve won, do we really have to chase Sauron to the end of the world and all die?”

The backlash was that some fans didn’t like that you were humanizing orcs?

McKay: The idea that that would somehow feel like moral relativism, or that we’re saying that Orcs are victims, which some folks said—It was shocking to us. We’re like, “What…?” It felt like not a big deal. The other [controversial] thing I would say is Galadriel, and Elrond, and the smoochies. For sure.

Payne: The kiss!

I was going to bring up the kiss, which was a way for him to sneak a tool to her to unshackle herself. But you guys had to know what you were doing there. You knew that you were going to stir up the fan base.

McKay: No, we did not, not at all. We thought it was just a delightful way to show that he was sorry that he mistrusted her for so long, and he loved her, and he was going to have to leave her to her own fate. He needed to distract the room so that he could slip her a hope that maybe she could get out of there. A kiss means a different thing between elves. Thousands of years of friendship mean a different thing to elves. The idea that it’s shipping bait or we’re trying to be controversial… To us it made perfect sense, but maybe that’s the problem.

Payne: If you look at the long game for where their relationships are going, Galadriel will eventually be Elrond’s mother-in-law. It’s slightly eyebrow-raising about the fact that they would’ve once kissed. It’s all part of it.

Stranger things have happened, man.

McKay: It’s like Leia kissing Luke. That’s not outrageous, it’s just that she’s trying to make Han Solo jealous in that moment because Han’s being a jerk to her. So, [Elrond’s kiss] came out of their friendship, and it came out of the needs of that moment. We did not think we were at all being controversial or stirring the pot.