And how it’ll factor into their overall plans for the show’s final season.

Going into Outer Banks season 4 part 2, fans knew the stakes were high for the Pogues. But in no way was anyone prepared for what actually happened in the season 4 finale. [Major Outer Banks season 4 spoilers ahead. Only a Kook would read on without watching!!!] In what might be the show’s biggest twist yet, OG Pogue JJ (Rudy Pankow) died in the Outer Banks season 4 finale after rallying the Pogues to travel to Morocco and retrieving Blackbeard’s Blue Crown.

Fans have been anticipating a Pogue death for a while, but fan theories don’t make his end any less tragic. Finally, after a season of devastation for JJ (blowing all their gold money, finding out he’s a Kook by blood, becoming a fugitive), he had the treasure only for it to be ripped from him. In a cruel twist of fate, his bio dad, Groff (who at this point had already tried to frame him for murder three times), grabbed Kie (Madison Bailey) and threatened to kill her unless JJ gave up the crown. But the second JJ let it go, Groff stabbed him in the gut. JJ died in Kiara’s arms.

Cosmo chatted with Outer Banks showrunners Shannon Burke, Jonas Pate, and Josh Pate about JJ’s fate and how Rudy took the news. And, yes, of course we asked the three men what it could mean for Rafe and Kiara shippers in Outer Banks’ fifth and final season.

When did you decide this would be JJ’s final season?

Shannon Burke: We were pretty sure early on that this was where it was going. We thought that one of the Pogues would die almost in the very beginning in season 1, and we were pretty sure it was going to be JJ. We just weren’t sure when we were going to play that card. We knew this would be JJ’s season—this is JJ’s story. And we realized pretty early on, like, Okay, we’re going to play this card now.

Did you always envision that he would be killed by his father specifically, or was that also discovered in the writers’ room?

Josh Pate: As we were shaping the season, the idea of having Groff come back as this real dad and then switch with Luke, that idea really unlocked a lot of plot and it led to Groff being the perpetrator. And also when we started to conceive of Groff, we wanted to write a really sociopathic character. Someone that was chameleon-like and had a lot of faces, dark secrets, and was a congenital liar on a level that you couldn’t believe. Just a really malevolent entity.

What was Rudy’s reaction when he heard the news? What were those conversations like behind the scenes?

Jonas Pate: Charles Esten [who played Ward Cameron in seasons 1 to 3] talked to Rudy about how sooner or later your character in any show has to come to an end. What you want is for your character to have a good exit. And I think that when Rudy found out, he had a sense that this was a chance to have a really good exit. I think he was excited by the dramatic possibility.

There was a sense of inevitability watching the finale. JJ had been growing increasingly reckless all season and even expressed some suicidal ideation to Pope in part 2. Why was it important for you guys to take him to the edge?

Jonas: Some of the things he was doing were so reckless, it was borderline death-wishy. It’s a fairly well established dramatic arc where someone is reckless and then saves themselves, but all of that karma stacks up on them and they meet their end. So it just sort of presented itself.

Josh: Finding out that Luke wasn’t his real father, that he was of Kook blood, was super destabilizing to his identity. JJ was the most Pogue, so that was a big part of how we were trying to spin the character up to extremes.

Shannon: We wanted his arc to be as emotional and tragic as possible. So you start out with this character who’s done crazy things—who robbed a drug dealer of $30,000 and bought his friends a hot tub—and done increasingly insane things, but it’s always for the group. And then last year, he started [doing things that weren’t so great for the group]. We just wanted to push him to the extreme, have him make up for it at the end of episode 9, and then in episode 10, we wanted him to be in the best place he’s ever been with Kiara. Before he climbs the pillar up the griffin, he’s saying, It’s my fault and I want to make up for it. And you feel like Kiara and JJ have almost gotten past something and are in this place that they’ve never been in before, because JJ has always been flying off the handle and Kiara’s been intense with him….So we wanted him to go on a whole journey and get to this place where they’re together and then it’s snatched away, so it’s the most emotional and most tragic.

Speaking of Kiara, JJ’s death is obviously very sad for Jiara shippers, but it does maybe open the door for Rafe and Kiara shippers—

Jonas: Oh, don’t encourage my brother!

Well, I’m wondering, where do Rafe and Kiara stand at the end of the season?

Josh: I don’t know how much they’re thinking about each other at the end of this season. I think Kiara is really consumed with revenge, and so is Rafe. He has different motivations, but he is more bonded with the Pogues than he’s ever been. Still, it’s a hard turn to go straight to a Rafe and Kiara ’ship given where they’ve been in the past. But we also know how great Drew and Madison are as actors and how great they are together. So we’re definitely going to explore that relationship.

Enemies-to-lovers is a classic for a reason.

Shannon: Hey Jonas, did you hear that?

So you’re against Rafe and Kiara?

Jonas: I’m anti. I mean, to me—

Josh: Hang on, let’s not divulge too much.

Shannon: It has been hotly debated.

Jonas: We’re aware, let’s put it that way.

You just announced a season 5 renewal, and even though JJ might be dead, there are still a lot of loose ends surrounding his arc this season—the Genrettes, who own Goat Island. Do we think there’s a chance we might see JJ back again in some form?

Jonas: I’d say never say never.

I want to talk about the other giant plot twist this season: Sarah’s pregnancy. It surprised me given that she had just told John B. she wasn’t ready for a baby right now—

Josh: That’s why we gave her one.

Talk to me more about that decision and what made you see that for Sarah?

Jonas: There was something organic about it on some level, and it has to do with our larger vision of the series. What do you think, Shannon?

Shannon: They’ve been through a lot of different things as a couple and this is sort of the next stage. We have this overall arc in our heads of where everyone will end up and what the end will look like, and it just felt like it was time to play that card and have them enter the next stage in their relationship. Obviously, they’ve been together, they’ve been not being a hundred percent loyal to each other and doing things wrong, and they’ve made up. They’re devoted to each other now and this is the next stage.

Was there ever any discussion about whether or not she would keep the baby or showing her have that thought?

Jonas: We certainly talked about all the outcomes of that story early on, but at the same time, as Shannon was saying, they are devoted to each other and they’re married—in their own weird way with beer can rings. So it felt real. And there was zero larger statement that we were thinking about outside of these two characters. People might read into it one way or the other, but we weren’t thinking about that.